Wednesday, October 29, 2008

Response to Jon: The Kobe Debate

I UNDERSTAND IF ONLY JON READS THIS CONSIDERING ITS LENGTH.

Jon (my brother) is a Celtics fan. I am a Lakers fan. Argument is obviously a natural entailment. He has currently brought against Kobe an argument that he is a bigger douche than Garnett (in an indirect way) and, somewhat implicitly, that he hasn’t earned as many awards as others or played as well as some in certain clutch situations (knocking him in general as a player). Now, I could spend days responding, but I figure one lengthy post was enough.

(Jon's post was in the comments section of my post about fanhood or whatever)

1 Deserved League MVP (to say he didn’t deserve it is false; to say someone else deserved it more would make more sense considering your angle about CP3)
10 time All-Star (youngest player to start an All-Star game)
6 All-NBA First Team (every year since 2002 except 2005)
2 All-NBA Second Team 2 All-NBA Third Team
6 All-Defensive First Team (every year since 2002 except 2005)
2 All-Defensive Second Team Youngest player to be named to an All-Defensive team; youngest player to start a game
[Six consecutive years (excluding 2005) Kobe made both the All-NBA First team and the All-Defensive First Team]

And to address the litany of things you bring against him: Though he has no Finals MVP awards, he was instrumental in the Lakers three-peat. In virtually every game they won, and even many they didn’t, Shaq and Kobe had great statistics and made the win possible. If Shaq was fouling out or on the bench due to foul trouble, or when Shaq was sluggish, Kobe repeatedly took over the game (usually in the 3rd and 4th quarters) and secured the win. If Kobe was sluggish, on the bench, etc., Shaq would take over the game. They were totally together in every way on the court. Every time Shaq wasn’t putting up 30, Kobe was, and vice versa (and sometimes together). In fact, during the last two championship years, Kobe averaged 28 points or more during the playoffs, both years (and during the first championship, he averaged close to 22). So I’m pretty sure his relationship with Shaq was symbiotic in that neither could have come close to doing what they did without the other. People say this and state the relationship to be 80/20 in Shaq’s favor, but that is to simply be ignorant of what happened. It’s more like 60/40 or closer.

The lack of Defensive Player of the Year awards doesn’t really count for much considering only one is given out every year and he is known less for his defense than his offense; however, his defense is stellar, as evidenced by his selection to All-Defensive First and Second teams 8 times (and All-Defensive Third team twice). Also, Kevin Garnett won the award in his 14th or 15th year in the league; does that mean Garnett was only good defensively this past year? It could, but obviously for Garnett it doesn’t, because he’s been selected to the All-Defensive Team nearly every year. Kobe is the same way; he’s never won the award, but he’s been on those teams nearly every year. And how many incredible defenders never won the award or won it very late in their careers?

Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year? Really? It’s given to “the athlete or team whose performance that year most embodies the spirit of sportsmanship and achievement.” Looking at the list, they give it to people and teams who win multiple championships, win MVP’s and championships, or play the game for a thousand years (Brett Favre and Cal Ripken). Kobe embodies a few of those, but how many people embody those and don’t get selected? And what if someone’s amazing performance in one sport is eclipsed by someone else who had a greater performance? Such as Shaquille O’Neal getting the League MVP and the Finals MVP in 2000 but losing the SI award to Tiger Woods who won three of the four majors that year. The very next year, 2001, Curt Shilling and Randy Johnson shared the SI award for doing exactly what Shaq did: winning “league” MVP (Cy Young for Johnson) and the Finals MVP. And Kobe could get the award for 2008 because he got the MVP and the Gold Medal, but it’s more likely that SI would give it to the USA Olympic Basketball Team as a whole or the Boston Celtics as a whole. So the SI award isn’t a fair judge of anything, really.

He was sixth man…for what little he played of his rookie season and most of his sophomore season. But sixth man awards go to players who are really good but happen to come off the bench. Kobe didn’t attain really good status (or at least consistent really good status) until the last half of his sophomore year – his SECOND year in the league (how many can say that? Bird? Magic? Jordan? Etc.?) and at the tender age of 19 (and only Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone, and Lebron James can say that). And in that sophomore year, he was runner-up in the Sixth Man award race, losing to Danny Manning of the Suns. A statistical comparison shows that he and Kobe had roughly the same production off the bench. So Kobe was right there with him. Besides, Danny Manning was 31 and an 8 year veteran while Kobe was 19 and in his second year.

He also didn’t get Most Improved because his improvements came during the second half a season; so when he came around the next year for a breakout, he had already had, technically, that breakout. It’s the same reason Andrew Bynum won’t get the award this year because he “broke out” last year, even if it was only 30 games.

You point out a few examples from a few games (out of thousands, mind you) where Kobe played poorly. But what about the many times Jordan sucked balls and his team lost? Or Jordan scored 60 but still lost? These examples are meaningless.

And SunsFanBlog guy confused the Shaq/Kobe feud, as do most people. Shaq was being a douche, always has been a douche, and everyone was fed up with it. The team had to get rid of one of them, and Kobe was younger and had, presumably, more better days in his future. The details are that Shaq repeatedly showed up for training camp out of weight and shape, never prepared; he always blamed everyone but himself in post-game conferences when they lost; and he only took credit for himself when they won in those same conferences. Shaq has always been an arrogant douche bag, worse than anything Kobe did. If Shaq wasn’t funny (and ridiculously good), no one would listen to him. That said, I still like Shaq, and always have. But to say that Kobe was a little bitch, or something, is to totally misunderstand the situation. In fact, there’s video evidence of Kobe and his teammates during interviews around that time talking about how Shaq blamed everyone but himself, was always out of shape, would sit out longer with injuries because he wanted to, and on and on. So I’m not making this up, or just believing Kobe. The team was sick of Shaq. If you want further evidence, look at what he did in Miami after one bad year: he sat most of the season with lots of injuries (that trainers have since claimed weren’t that serious or time-worthy) and then when he got traded to the Suns, he’s back up and ready to go in a day or two. So I like Shaq, but honestly, he was more than deserving of blame in getting kicked off the Lakers. Kobe deserves blame, too, but showed more poise and clearheadedness (and more love for the game) than Shaq.

And I won’t even address the rape situation; you can’t argue with an angry guy like SunsFanBlog.

So most of this didn’t address Kobe being a douche, but most of what you cited didn’t either; so it’s all good. But Kobe can be a bit of a douche (and a huge one, especially early in his career), much like anyone and everyone. But the difference between Kobe and Garnett is that Kobe has matured, somewhat; he is not nearly as much of a douche as he was five years ago, whereas Garnett is 32 and still a douche. You will recall the Suns/Celtics game where Garnett repeatedly got angry at Stoudemire, instigated a double technical, and went at him hard a couple of times for no reason (didn’t even have the ball two of those times). So while Kobe has grown up, realized some of his errors, and made amends and progress towards fixing them, Garnett still does douchy things when his team is losing, badly.

I will say that Kobe’s first two years without Shaq were awful and he was partly to blame. He had an awful team, sure, but he didn’t make many efforts to bring them up, to raise their game as Lebron has done. He quickly got over that, however, and the Lakers of 06-07 were much better, and the year after went to the Finals with basically the same squad (Gasol obviously was an addition). Farmar, Odom, Vujacic, Walton, Turiaf, Mihm, etc. have all gotten significantly better over the past few years, and the last year and a half has been to Kobe’s credit. He started encouraging them as a leader, which he hadn’t done before. I don't want to give him sole credit, for that would depreciate what each player did for themselves, but it had to be healthy having an encouraging, incredible player next to them.

(And, just for comparison, Garnett went to the conference finals in 2004 with a decent Minnesota team, but did worse than Kobe or the same every surrounding year until he was put on the Celtics. Obviously, Garnett deserves a lot of credit for the team atmosphere on the Celtics this year, but adding to a positive team atmosphere and raising the game of those around you are two different things. I would say Paul Pierce and Doc Rivers deserve most of the credit for the bench development.)

So yes, Kobe has been a giant douche bag, yes, Kobe has done a lot of stupid things, and no, I won't defend a lot of his actions over the past 11 years; but judge him by who he is, not who he was. The last year and a half, he has matured, grown as a person and a player, has said in different interviews that he feels this way, that he feels closer to his family and his children, and that he’s past all of his boyish nonsense that pervaded most of his early career. Hell, during the Finals last year after a particularly bad loss, he read a Harry Potter book to his two daughters for hours, saying it was the best thing he’s done in a while. So judge him by who he is, not who he was.


Oh, and that uncyclopedia thing was extremely crazy and very hilarious. haha Here it is if you didn't see the comment Jon left: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kobe_Bryant

5 erotic poetry prompts:

JCWIII October 29, 2008 at 3:20 PM  

so if kobe is a douche and garnett is a douche why stop rooting for one but not the other?

The Filthy Logician October 29, 2008 at 3:52 PM  

I left out a paragraph I thought would get a lot of heat which outlined my answer to that question. I said, more or less, that while Garnett has not changed in his career, and remains a douche, Kobe has matured, has changed, if only in the past 18 months. And that was why I root for Kobe and not Garnett. If Garnett changes, by all means I'll root for him again.

I Really Heart Tinfoil Hats! October 30, 2008 at 12:20 AM  

OMG that fuckin' link is hairlarious! Just thought I'd point out Jeffrey, that you have some facts wrong there I believe. I believe that Jackson's contract wasn't renewed at the end of that fateful season and Kobe was entering free agent status. Shaq ASKED to be traded when he found out about Jackson's contract, but I'm sure that Kobe the asshat had something to do with it (don't get me wrong, I think Kobe is amazingly skilled. . . but also a douche). Kobe was backbiting against Shaq, which was what those comments about Shaq's leadership and out of shape status was about. Let's not forget that Kobe stated to investigators that Shaq paid off women to keep rendezvous secret. If that's not backbiting, I don't know what is. At least Shaq only criticized Kobe in his team role. Kobe went further and brought another element into their feud with that comment (which Shaq responded to with a remark about Kobe purchasing love I think).

Shaq ASKED to be traded though. It wasn't a decision to keep Kobe versus Shaq. Shaq wanted out. It wasn't a team decision.

Further, let's not compare MJ to Kobe. MJ was the most intense competitor in basketball I've ever seen in my lifetime (even watching old clips of players). MJ was certainly skilled. . . but what made him so great was his sheer competitive drive and the way in which he motivated his team to greater lengths than almost any other player I've ever seen. I've yet to see Kobe do anything even remotely like that. I honestly think that Kobe probably has greater physical talent compared to Jordan. But that doesn't measure the sum total of his impact on the game. Jordan's force of will was almost mystical now that I think back about it. Kobe seems more like a petulant, yet skilled, child.

Did I mention that I love Jordan?

Oh, and Kobe is a rapist. . .
and black. . .

In case you didn't know. . .

The Filthy Logician October 30, 2008 at 6:31 AM  

haha nice. And I also wish I could have been more involved with the jordan era, cause that's what i always here. I here about his competitive nature and how much greater it is than someone like Kobe or Lebron. and theirs are pretty intense, so Jordan must have been through the roof.

I Really Heart Tinfoil Hats! October 30, 2008 at 7:59 AM  

You could see it come through with his interaction with the other players on his team. Jordan used to give it his all and he demanded that his team give it their all as well. He somehow made them all push their abilities and intensity to the limit. He was truly magical in that regard.